Karol Szymanowski’s opera Król Roger is little known and rarely performed, despite its great lyricism. What could this be due to?
If we examine the history of performances, we are forced to recognise that it was rarely presented. It premiered in 1926 and was performed in Germany only in 1928 and in Prague in 1932, and it was not until 1975 that it was staged in the United Kingdom. I think there are two reasons for this. First of all, Szymanowski was discovered relatively late in the history of 20th century music. Szymanowski also benefited from Mahler’s entry to the concert repertoire because, in my opinion, these two composers have a somewhat similar musical language. In the meantime, he has also benefited from a revived interest thanks to the many CD recordings of his works. The same is true for Król Roger: for the past twelve years or so, this work has been performed more often. The second reason is that the meaning and the ‘message’ behind this work is not entirely clear.

What do you think this work is about?
This work philosophises about a new society. Everything takes place on a backdrop of a rigidly set cult which cannot be questioned. One of the characters is opposed and proposes a completely different and innovative view of the world, whose content, however, remains vague. With the debate surrounding the Catholic Church today, this seems extremely contemporary. There are several facets to the work, such as the opposition between dogma and Dionysian cult or attraction to the beauty of nature, expressed in the great final hymn to nature. In it I see a modern tale about a vaguely defined political movement, hence the difficulty to understand the work. It presents opposing views of the world. We know that Szymanowski had a huge fascination for the various cultures in the Mediterranean Basin. Mediaeval Sicily was a true melting pot of these cultures, and it is therefore no coincidence that Król Roger takes place there. In Sicily, one may find a Byzantine church, a royal palace and an ancient theatre, and it is precisely these three places with their respective cultures which serve as a setting for the three acts in the work. Szymanowski himself worked on the libretto for a long time – especially on the third act whose content he greatly modified during the composition in 1920. In the libretto, he explored the cultural values which underlie our own culture, a product of Christianity which has also been subject to the much older influences of antiquity. Once again, this seems very contemporary. And even if the story is somewhat vague, this work has such musical force that it will without a doubt move and fascinate.

Can these different worlds be heard in the music as well?
I think they can be heard very clearly. Szymanowski tried to link everything together, and this link contains obvious references to Byzantine and ancient culture – the pentachord, for example – as well as references to the different places in which it is found, and to the cultures which are gathered here. There is also a very wide musical range: from Gregorian chant with a very strict form, to a wild and almost delirious dance full of Straussian sensuality. And young people who dance to the point of exhaustion is also very contemporary. The great lyricism is the first thing one notices in this work, as well as the beauty of the music. It is not so evident if one considers that it is from the same period as Alban Berg’s Wozzeck.

Where do you situate Król Roger in the history of music?
I think that the relationship to Berg is not very close, even though I always situate Berg in the prolongation of late romanticism. When I conduct Berg, I do not really consider it to be music with a strictly well-thought-out structure; I feel it is sensitive music which is full of emotions, despite the fact that its construction is extremely well thought-out. In my opinion, Szymanowski is instead situated between Strauss and Janáček. The rich tone of his music is comparable to that of Strauss, whereas the language of the rhythmic passages remind one of Janáček’s The Makropulos Case. But in the end, Szymanowski developed a very distinctive language and style – which emerge for example from his Symphony No. 3, quite obviously in keeping with the continuation of late romanticism. From time to time Szymanowski’s work contains atonal passages, but it is not atonal – neither more nor less than Mahler’s Symphony No. 9, which also contains some atonal passages.

Szymanowski was also very classical as regards formal structures, wasn’t he?
Yes, he tried to associate specific forms with the different worlds in this work, and to do this he turned to very classical forms. This is especially noticeable in the first act. We find passages which are very comparable to his Stabat Mater, a work of genius in my opinion, as he was able to combine all of the forms of religious music – traditional by nature – with a harmony which truly emerges from the 20th century. This is also what he did in Król Roger.

How did Szymanowski write for an orchestra?
Król Roger is a score of great musical beauty. But I must admit that the richness of the orchestration takes away from the perfect balance between the singers and the orchestra – even when the orchestra is in the pit. We can see that Szymanowski did not have experience composing operas, unlike Wagner for example, whose singers in his last operas remain completely audible, even with a big orchestra. Once in a while I therefore have to ‘help’ the singers and the orchestra to maintain the balance, in particular when the orchestra is on stage.

And what is his vocal writing like?
It is very lyric and wonderful to sing. In fact, some solos are more like lieder for orchestra rather than arias, such as Roxana’s monologue, whose concert performance was also authorised by Szymanowski.

Król Roger is sometimes likened more to oratorio than to opera. Is this justified?
It is an opera which is indeed very similar to oratorio, and which works well in its concert version. The stage director who has a go at this opera has the difficult task of proposing a clear and convincing interpretation from start to finish. I have also conducted it in its theatrical version and therefore know from experience that it is very difficult to achieve a good balance in terms of sound. The option to conduct Król Roger in a concert version therefore suits me perfectly.

Interview by Reinder Pols